FOX HANNITY & COLMES, March 31, 2003
Interview With William Hartung
HANNITY: Thanks, Jane. As we continue on HANNITY AND COLMES, also coming up next, long time war correspondent Peter Arnett was just fired for giving an interview to Iraqi television and saying that America's initial war plans had failed. Did NBC News make the right decision?
And Dick Morris, he'll be here. We're going to talk about the public support for the war. We'll go over some polls.
But first, should college professors be allowed to say anything they want outside of the classroom?
Last Wednesday, at a Columbia University anti-war teach-in anthropology professor Nicholas De Genova made some very harsh comments about our troops. He said, "the only true here heroes are those who find ways that help defeat the U.S. military, and I personally would like to see a million Mogadishus."
He was referring, of course, to the 1993 amBush in Somalia that killed 18 Americans. Remember, they were dragging American soldiers' bodies through the streets.
And should this professor be allowed to keep his job? And joining us here in the studio, Bill Hartung. He's a senior fellow at the World Policy Institute.
Do you think this guy should not be fired for these disgusting comments, these despicable comments?
WILLIAM HARTUNG, WORLD POLICY INSTITUTE: Well, despicable is exactly right;. But I think first of all, this guy is not an anti-war person. He's pro war. He's just on the other side.
I mean, this is not an anti-war person; he's saying he wants U.S. troops to get killed. Most people in the anti-war movement are saying we want our troops safe, we want minimal casualties. We want to get this over with.
But I think, the way I see it is, he's at a university. I went to Columbia. These kids are smart. They can detect, you know, nonsense...
HANNITY: That's not the point. It's a matter of, are we hiring the best people to teach our children, and a man that wants a thousand...
HARTUNG: What do you mean by we? You mean you?
HANNITY: We -- we whoever the parents are that...
HARTUNG: What should be the process?
HANNITY: Well, the point is...
HARTUNG: The process that we have is...
HANNITY: Let me finish -- let me finish. If we have -- if we have a professor that wants 1,000 instances of American brave soldiers being murdered and dragged through the streets, is that man qualified to teach your kids?
HARTUNG: I would not send my daughter to his class. But when I went to Columbia we had a guy who had the students rate the professors. I would stay a mile away from him. But it's not up to me or you to decide that.
HANNITY: Sure it is.
HARTUNG: It's up to Columbia University.
HANNITY: Sure it is. It is up to Columbia, and we're telling Columbia that they ought to fire this student because this is, in many ways, a lot of times these kids have to take this class. It's a captive audience.
Now is that man that wants the death of our soldiers, that wants our soldiers dragged through the streets and murdered, is he a traitor?
HARTUNG: You don't have to point at me, you know.
HANNITY: Is he a traitor? Is he a traitor?
HARTUNG: Put down the finger.
HANNITY: Is he a traitor?
HARTUNG: Put down the finger.
HANNITY: Put down the finger? I'm not putting down the finger -- if you don't like it, leave. If you don't like the way I do my interviews.
HARTUNG: I'm not going anywhere. I'm staying right here.
HANNITY: There's the finger. Now, answer the question.
HARTUNG: I'll give you another finger.
HANNITY: Go ahead. Go right ahead.
HARTUNG: Ask the question. Ask the question.
HANNITY: I just asked the question.
HARTUNG: Which is what?
HANNITY: I'm asking you if this guy is a traitor?
HARTUNG: I think his views are despicable and traitorous. I also believe in academic freedom.
HANNITY: Why do we want traitors teaching our kids?
HARTUNG: Let me ask you something.
HANNITY: You do the host.
HARTUNG: Do you only...
HANNITY: Don't point at me.
HARTUNG: Do you only support democracy in Iraq or do you support democracy in America? Because in America we have academic freedom.
HANNITY: But there is something aiding and abetting...
HARTUNG: At my university...
HANNITY: Giving aid...
HARTUNG: Let me finish.
HANNITY: ... and comfort to the enemy.
HARTUNG: Let me finish. Let me finish.
HANNITY: Are you OK?
HARTUNG: Let me finish.
HANNITY: Do you need help?
HARTUNG: Yes, I want to finish my sentence.
HANNITY: Are you OK?
HARTUNG: I want to finish my sentence. Are you a part of the show here, or is this just his show?
COLMES: Well, you don't have to insult me either. It's half his show and half his show.
HARTUNG: Right, right. Are you going to let me finish?
COLMES: Excuse me, just calm down. His -- it was Sean's turn to speak and now it's my turn to speak.
HARTUNG: Great.
COLMES: All right? Calm down. I'm not pointing a finger, this is the palm of of my hand.
HARTUNG: That's fine.
COLMES: A stop sign. Now go ahead.
HANNITY: Do you want to borrow my pen?
HARTUNG: Am I ever going to get to finish that sentence?
COLMES: Go ahead and finish your sentence.
HARTUNG: My point is this: I'm at New School University. Our president, Bob Kerry, is with you for the war.
When the students said he has no right to be our president, because he's for this war and the students are against it, I sit with Bob Kerry. I said this is a university. I'm against the war, he's for the war. Debate is what universities are about. Debate is what America is about.
COLMES: Professor Hartung, I happen to agree with you. But why are you so angry?
HARTUNG: I'm so angry because I know exactly how guys like him and O'Reilly work. They try to paint you into a corner and put you in a caricature.
COLMES: You have a great argument. First of all, don't insult my partner. You have an opportunity here to defend yourself. You have -- I have equal time. I happen to agree with your opinion.
HARTUNG: Then let's get to the substance.
COLMES: But it seems like you're very hostile and defensive...
HARTUNG: No.
COLMES: ... and there's no need to argue from that vantage point.
HARTUNG: I'm not hostile and defensive. But I'm not going let him put words in my mouth.
COLMES: He didn't.
HARTUNG: He would have. He certainly would have. I watch his show, I've read his book, I know his whole act.
HANNITY: Did you like it?
COLMES: I can get you an autographed copy of it. Let's gets back on topic.
HANNITY: Did you like it?
COLMES: Let's get back on topic here.
HARTUNG: I think it was very entertaining.
COLMES: I think it should be clear what this man said was reprehensible. Columbia...
HARTUNG: We've already said that.
HANNITY: You want me to autograph it for you?
COLMES: Hold on. I don't want to point it at you, though. Look -- this is a private university, they have the right to do what they want with their faculty.
HARTUNG: Precisely.
COLMES: However, it's got to be very troubling to you as an academic that someone in the academic community would make a statement like this, that basically wants the death and destruction of U.S. troops. It's outrageous.
HARTUNG: This guy can not only -- in my opinion, I would never let him teach my kid, he should be run out of the anti-war movement. This guy is not...
COLMES: He's not really part of it -- as you pointed out, you've made a very good point, he's not really an anti-war guy if he wants the death and destruction of troops. The anti-war people want the troops home now and safely.
HARTUNG: I think that guy should never be invited as an anti-war speaker. He's a pro war speaker and he's not even on the right side.
COLMES: Good point.
HANNITY: Do you want me to autograph that book for you?
HARTUNG: Absolutely, I'll put it on eBay; I'll make big bucks.
HANNITY: OK. There it is. All right. Remind me, never to point at a guest again. Thank you for being with us.
COLMES: Or your co-host.
HANNITY: And coming up next, our next guest says that NBC made the wrong decision by firing war correspondent Peter Arnett. We'll bring you that story. And how long will the commander-in-chief have the support of the American public if this battle isn't as quick and easy as everyone hopes for? We'll look at the polls with Dick Morris, all straight ahead.
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